Evidence for Hope Beyond Hell (1)
The first and greatest of all commandments, said Jesus, is to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.(Mk 12:30)
Have you ever thought through the implications of this as it relates to an eternal hell?
Belief in an eternal hell effectively bars, or prevents us, from loving God with all our heart and mind;, especially our heart – if by “heart” we mean the seat of our affections.
Can you really love someone, human or Divine, with all your heart, if the consequences for not doing so would result in your being tortured forever and ever?
No! Of course not.
This one thought, by itself, should be ample evidence, for any reflective and honest person, that the doctrine of an eternal Hell, by the hands of a loving God has to be false.
The only way we can love God with all our heart (the seat of our affections), is when we know that we, and those we love, are secure and safe in His loving arms.
– Gerry Beauchemin, author of “Hope Beyond Hell” the Righteous Purpose of God’s Judgments.
June 24, 2011
If your mind revolts at eternal torment in the lake of fire then it probably hasn’t been renewed. Regenerated people know that if God hadn’t acted supernaturally on their behalf to save them then they’d be lost forever with no hope of redemption. They know they deserve to burn forever. They praise and thank God for His true and righteous judgments. They don’t accuse God of being unjust because of everlasting punishment. They know the Judge of all the earth does right.
March 14, 2012
We Christians who make the claim you have just made have no idea of what eternity means. We should all be weeping for the billions of precious people that Jesus died for who are in or on their way to a place of suffering in hell forever and ever and ever and ever. How many tears have you shed today? There should never ever be a smile on our face. We should not be diverted by any pleasure, and comfort, and distraction whatsoever than to warn every single person we can reach every waking moment of every day, week, month, year, and lifetime. You have stated the traditional view so well. That is how far from God we have drifted. How sad indeed. How tragic. May God open our eyes, and more than that, our hearts. What you have stated in not the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s merely the BAD NEWS of a flawed human tradition that thankfully is beginning to be seen for what it really is by the Church. “These people draw near to me with their mouths, and honor me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the commandment [tradition] of men.” Is 29:13.
Please do not reply to my reply, this is not a discussion forum. However, if you want to reply to me privately, my email is hopebeyondhell@yahoo.com.
Thank you. And may God open your eyes and everyone who shares such a horrid view. Gerry Beauchemin
March 25, 2012
In regard to the comment by Ms.Snyder , it could be plausibly argued that people might deserve some sort of punishment (even of an endless sort) for the sins they commit , but to propose that people “deserve” endless physical torture makes NO sense, from an ethical standpoint . Regardless of whether or not there is any universal reconcilliation of all people by Jesus eventually, even if there won’t be , the scenario of endless torture would still make NO sense, from an ethical standpoint . An alternate hell , NOT of grisly physical torture or anything that assaults the senses , but , say , of endless embarassment and/or guilt …a sense of the absurdity of the sins the person has committed : (be they sins of an active sort , or the sin of spiritual sloth) , would make sense, for such an alternate type of hell would address *how* and *why* what they did was wrong , *not* merely show them that doing what they did results in an uncomfortable sensation in the afterlife .
Physical pain does NOT serve justice . Inflicting physical pain only satisfies a *visceral* desire for retribution where there is a *visceral* satisfaction in causing pain on an adversary .
Are we actually to imagine that God is visceral ? Is the anger of God a visceral sort of anger, or is God being purely spiritual , one that has an anger of a nobler and far more mental sort , then the sort of visceral anger that is operant with people who , say, hit something when they are mad at it ?
If there is the physicalized hell of endless physical torture where people are conscious , then people could continue thinking sinful thoughts of blasphemy, vindictiveness towards their fellow man while in such a place …and sin could continue forever in hell …If sinful thoughts continue forever in hell , then that would entail that there is only a *partial* victory over sin .
Though I have the hope that there might be a universal Salvation through Jesus eventually (for after all as the book of Acts, explains Jesus is the only name under heaven where men might be saved…or if not a full fledged redemption of all , then at least some sort of remediation of all …perhaps the individual spirits of some persons might be saved even if their souls are not)…..even if that hope does NOT come to pass , the insight remains that a state of endless torture is NOT the only way to punish the dammed , and certainly would not achieve justice .
Again , an alternate hell of endless embarassment would serve justice . Or an alternate hell of perpetual fading of personality . C.S. Lewis (highly overrated theologian as he was) in one writing plausibly described a hell as ‘the outer rim of being where being fades away into nonentity ‘.
The notion of a hell with demons weilding instruments of torture on the dammed endlessly , is weird and would NOT serve justice . Though not all fundamentalists propose that demons will administer torture in hell, the ones that do (such as Bill Wiese) are presented with a considerable theological problem : if the demons are the adversaries of God , then wouldn’t God want to deny the demons any last bit of pleasure , and if the demons are getting pleasure from torturing someone in hell, then are those enemies of God (the demons) really being punished if they can get pleasure while in that sort of “hell” ?
March 28, 2012
It is interesting that you should mention the epistles to Timothy .
Here goes a somewhat condensed copy of an article I posted everywhere on how though a number of fundamentalists weirdly claim that the epistles of Timothy are somehow warning against Christian universalists and liberal theologians , a factor that some might call ‘ironic’ is that a number of verses from those epistles that fundamentalists claim to be prooftexts could more plausibly apply to tendencies within some fundamentalist circles .
It never ceases to amaze me how some fundamentalists claim that the verses in the letters to Timothy, in the New Testament, which refer to false teachers somehow (allegedly) apply to theologically liberal Christians , Christian universalists, and those who teach the sort of theology or doctrines that might *seem* very unusual .
That sort of misinterpretation of the scriptures ought to be debunked head on / directly when they try to misconstrue such scriptures .
Recently , I visited a website where discussions of the prospect of universal salvation versus various claims about irreversible damnation were being discussed .
After one participant had raised arguments based on various interpretations of the scriptures in favor of universal salvation *THROUGH Jesus*, the other fellow had counter-argued and, in the process of counterarguing against the Christian universalist position , went on to suggest that those who supported a scenario of universal salvation through Jesus , were like unto the false teachers that Paul mentioned in I Timothy chapter 6: versus 3-5 ) .
Instead of the King James or the New King James the fundamentalist guy quoted the following contemporary version shown below :
“If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. (1 Tim. 6:3-5)” .
Yet if one studies carefully the text , the type of false doctrine that Paul mentions is the particular sort of false doctrine which seeks envy , strife, malicious talk and which appeals to those who “think godliness is a means to financial gain ” .
Using I Timothy 6:3-5 AS IF it were somehow referrng to universalism (or any sort of liberal theology) is playing quite fast and loose with what the scripture states . The reference to the particular sort of false doctrine which involves people who “think godliness is a means to financial gain” would apply to the teachings of the “prosperity gospel” and/or the religious right wing conservative types who claim that God wants people to get rich , trying to claim that it somehow applies to people who support a doctrine of universal salvation is a weird and far fetched interpretation !
In the New King James Version of the New Testament , the version of the passage makes the phrasing even more directly in reference to those who seek financial gain and stirrs up backbiting among a congregation ,
‘If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ , and to the doctrine which accords with godliness , he is proud , knowing nothing , but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words , from which come envy , strife, reviling , evil suspicions , useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth , who suppose that godliness is a means to gain ‘.
That the author of Timothy is warning Timothy about those who use religion as a means of financial greed , and NOT warning against liberal theology or universalism can be seen by the verses in the same passage just 2 or 3 verses down .
I Timothy 6: 9-10 goes on to report :
‘But those who desire to be rich fall into a temptation and a snare , and to many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. FOR THE LOVE OF MONEY is thea root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from their faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows ‘ .
Thus , it becomes increasing clear that the import of the passage of I Timothy 6:9-10 is NOT a warning against liberal theology , NOT a warning against Christian universalism, but instead a warning against those who seek to stirr up church politics to serve the interests of financial greed .
The warning about those “obsessed with disputes and arguments over words” should NOT be interpreted as referring to intellectual sorts of arguments about the meaning and proper usage of words , as some ANTI-intellectual factions of the fundamentalist movement might like to interpret as . Instead , the import of the passage is *NOT* against the analytical , intellectual debate about the meaning of words, but *instead* is about those who seek to stirr up *gossip and backbiting* in Christian congregations to serve the vested interests of *financial greed* .
That such misinterpretation of such verses in the letters to Timothy is done should be, thus, exposed for the misinterpretation it is .
The sort of wrong doctrine that the passage addresses is not any sort of “unusual doctine ” or even each and every doctrine that might be (arguably) mistaken —even if it were mistaken . The verses address a particular type of false doctrine : the doctrine that presumes it is somehow a okay to stirr up backbiting in a congregation to serve the interests of financial greed .
Also with the the references in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 which makes reference to those who “will not endure sound doctine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears , they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth and , will be turned aside to fables ‘, fundamentalists who interpret that warning claiming that it refers to liberal theology, the higher criticism of the Bible , Christian universalism play fast and loose with the interpretation of that passage as well .
Given that the polemics in 2 Timothy tend to be preoccupied with denouncing the sort sexual libertines given to promiscuity, such as those who “creep into households and make captives of gulliable women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts ” (as mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:6 ) and the ones in the previous letter to Timothy warn against those who use Christian office for financial gain , the interpretation promoted by many fundamnentalists that somehow the warning against those who “will not endure sound doctrine” and have “itching ears” “those who heap up for themselves teachers” somehow applies to Christian universalists or liberal theologians and so on , can be seen to be a far fetched intepretation without any explicit warrant in the text at all . *Nowhere* does 2 Timothy 4:4 or any of the verses in 1st or 2nd Timothy , nor anywhere else in the Bible state that the people who do not endure sound doctrine or are turned aside to fables refers in any way with Christian universalism , nor liberal theology ….(As an aside, it could be more plausibly applied to the lurid , PSEUDO-Christian money making “Left Behind ” series of Entertainment movies and books which affirm all sorts of fables —including claiming that Mr 666 mentioned in Revelation, has a name like “Nicolae” and all sorts of other fabled stuff, that appeals to a voyeuristic entertainment driven society: content which is *not* found in the book of Revelation which it claims to use as a template) .
Wanted to mention that I do not know whether there will be an eventual universal salvation of all people , or at least some sort of remediation of them through Jesus, perhaps some might continue to resist the invitation of God to follow Jesus forever . We as Christians, should hope and pray that all beings will be to some extent reconcilled to God BY JESUS , whether it actually happens in the end , I don’t know . It would be good if the eventual redemption or remediation of all people and conscious agents were to happen . However, regardless of whether or not all people are eventually redeemed by Jesus or not , the warnings in the New Testament against false teachers and the references to the term “heretic” found in the New Testament do NOT mention universalism nor any sort of liberal theology and so , it should be rebutted whenever those among the fundamentalists who go beyond the specific phrasing of the scriptures , presuppose that somehow that such scriptures are allegedly referring to Christian universalists, liberal theologians or whatever theology they greatly dislike (whatever might be different from what they deem permitted variations amongst the various factions of fundamentalism that get along ) .
The warnings about ‘another Jesus’ or ‘another gospel’ are, again, yet another area where it ought to be thus exposed that the fundamentalists make fast & loose , unsound interpretations of what the texts refer to .
March 30, 2012
I just wanted to post a message , sir, to feel free to copy the post above regarding how a number of the fundamentalists misconstrue the warnings against false teachers (which are found in 1 st and 2 Timothy) when they wrongly misapply in to Christian universalists and liberal theologians .
I don’t seek to be cited , it is important that the word be spread on how a number of fundamentalists have misconstrued those verses , so I invite people to copy the text of the above post *without* having to credit me as author , since the message is more important than the messenger .